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▲Microsoft new Outlook takes 10 seconds to do what Outlook Classic does instantly<span class="_source_ka9gd_36"> (windowslatest.com)
Rendered at 12:15:05 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
If you have considered switching to Linux and worried that it would be a chore, give it a shot (if you have the freedom to choose). It has been polished and ready since at least 2019. I have to use a Windows machine for work and, like this New Outlook issue shows, MSFT has concluded most users can't or won't leave so there's no margin in improving UX and some margin in doing things that make UX much worse. I don't think I'll elect to have a personal Windows machine ever again in my life.
Linux people said things like this in 2019 too. It's always "been improved a lot in the past few years" (not saying this statement can't be true.)
At this point I'm convinced that no matter how much or little Linux desktop is improved, its market share is solely dependent on how much Microsoft fucked up.
Until one day I got so frustrated with constant settings resets, reboots at the worst times for software updates that fail, highjacking my pc after every update for a guided tour of the latest things Microsoft decided to break, and telemetry that can only be disabled with an obscure registry hack that changes every few months, I just couldn't anymore.
Linux has been good enough as a daily driver for a while now, but even with proton I don't know if the pull factors towards Linux will ever be strong enough for most people. For me though the push factors away from Microsoft had gotten so strong I couldn't take it anymore.
The long term outcome of that is that 90+% of industry still buys Windows PCs. And non-industry: once non-techie people are on an OS (Windows/MacOS), many don't move off it, though Apple's ecosystem has been a good carrot+stick.
One of the more interesting indicators is (even though desktop software is in decline) - the number of apps that are Windows and Mac and maybe linux, and the increasing number of apps that Mac-only or Mac+Linux but do NOT have a Windows download. Something unimaginable in the 90s and 00s.
MS are certainly accelerating adoption of other platforms due to their own mismanagement.
> At this point I'm convinced that no matter how much or little Linux desktop is improved, its market share is solely dependent on how much Microsoft fucked up.
Lifelong Windows user here. If you could get the kind of driver support you have with Windows for just whatever the fuck you have lying around, I'd probably use my Ubuntu laptop as more of a daily driver.
It's kind of liberating, to be able to ignore a huge amount of crap in the market because you can tell it is just some sort of delivery vector for proprietary Windows drivers and their dodgy installers.
For me, I switched when the start menu started showing internet ads as part of the results... I ran insiders for years, often joking that WSL was my favorite Linux distro... I love the new MS Terminal, and pretty happy with a lot of things. That said, there's far more that annoys me... it's too in your face trying to sell you additional software/services/features that frankly I find offensive from an OS. It's like built in malware ads. They might as well try to sell me an X10 camera in those popups, I'd feel just as irritated about it.
I went from dual booting, to just Linux for my personal use a few years ago and been pretty happy. I'm not a gamer, and was already using Linux as my dev target for server software. It wasn't a big deal for me. Even the growing pains for Cosmic have been less annoying than some of the "features" of Windows.
This isn't an issue with the hardware being too new or anything; it all works and the firmwares are all available, but Ubuntu's kernel snaps don't ship them and they make it much harder to get them yourself either.
If Lenovo's own adapter doesn't work on one of the most well supported product lines on Linux, that is not a good look.
To be very clear, I am a long time Linux user and most of the third-party stuff usually just works.
My [old] laptop had a a card reader, hdmi, vga, a serial port and rows of usb2 ports, a plug for power, headphone jack etc etc
Back at his place he showed me the USB hub and the Rube Goldberg dongle collection. I said, ahh there you have all those connectors you didn't need.
I now think USB is magic. Not wanting to use it for everything means you are getting old. The future is a desk full of dongles.
https://resolume.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5430&mode=vi...
I eventually gave up and bought a Macbook and installed Homebrew and Rectangle on it. I haven't thought about drivers or firmware updates for that device since I bought it.
If I did own a desktop, I would use linux on it, and I solely use linux when I'm using VMs or cloud providers.
Recently started working at a company that uses windows and .net and it's so bad.
You should have used their special (released by them) nonfree ISO or Ubuntu and you would've been fine.
Your stuff is probably supported by official debian repos, just not ones that are enabled by default.
Try Linux sometime again! You won't regret it.
Of what is builtin, the fingerprint reader and the numberpad functionality of the touchpad don't work.
Everything else works fine though.
Bruh.
2 weeks ago I was getting full kernel crashes on Ubuntu Server due to an Intel iGPU on a Dell Laptop with a 7th gen i7. Fortunately Claude Code fixed it after a couple of attempts, but still.
Audio was completely corrupt on a Bazzite HTPC I tried to set up 6 months ago, until I changed some setting on my TV related to 10-bit colour. Then, when that was sorted Kodi would only run in 30Hz despite the fact that other apps supported 60.
My previous laptop with Arch (circa 2020) sometimes wouldn't wake from sleep.
When I ran an OpenSUSE Desktop (circa 2019) I picked Noveau instead of the proprietary drivers, and the picture was all corrupt. Then when I installed the proper Nvidia drivers, I did the wrong thing and my whole screen turned black, Linus-style.
I then switched the same desktop to Ubuntu, which was better out of the box, but would stop reading my USB SD card reader after unplugging it a few times. WiFi would also randomly drop out until I rebooted the whole system every few hours, and when talking to my Brother Laser Printer it would only print in like 30dpi or somthing ridiculous. I was emailing the files to myself, rebooting back into Windows and then printing from there because it was so bad.
The 5 year gap between the current Linux attempts and the last one had less to do with Linux improvements and more to do with agentic LLMs being able to paper over all the cracks. To be fair, though, I expect regular people having access to Opus 4.5-tier or higher models will result in all kinds of minor issues that would normally be overlooked actually getting fixed on Linux. (Thinking about it a bit more, regular users will have access to subsidised tokens too, so a million open source devs running $20 Claude Pro subscriptions might between them be able to do way more with that $20 million than Microsoft could with Enterprise API access).
They've been saying it since it was competing with Windows XP at least.
I'm sure the lone Linux experimenter just gave up some place half way configuring the HP printer.
I do have one windows machine still, and thats my simrig, this is a purpose built computer+rig specifically for iRacing and iRacing have said that they won't support linux, and so w/ that, I'll keep it in windows, until they change their position.
Linux has been a fine desktop since almost its beginning.
My first work-issued laptop was in 1994, running Linux. Using a PCMCIA modem to connect to the internet via dialup. Worked perfect. Every year since then (that's 32 years now) I've had Linux desktop(s) and laptop(s) and it all works fine.
If one looks for excuses, excuses can be found, but it has worked fine since the beginning.
I don't care about fussing around and just need a useful machine for work and fun. Linux is far from perfect for me but the amount of crap windows or macos throw at me when I have to use them is almost comical.
I know it's silly to have a MacBook Pro just for the screen size, its ability to drive two external monitors, and the battery life Apple Silicon achieves. And I feel a bit rude not really learning much about the dev tools the community has made for MacOS. But it is just really nice hardware (I just wish it wasn't such a chore to configure my Macbook to have the same ctrl+c, ctrl+v keyboard shortcuts when using an external keyboard, but the hardware is sufficiently better than anything else on the market that I tolerate it).
A mac with homebrew and rectangle installed works well enough as a hobby development machine for me that I rarely feel the need to ssh into something else.
They are trying so hard to destroy that, basically nothing is left.
Just yesterday I needed to run equivalent of strace on a mac to trace system call. Great, it has dtruss (truss was the command on Solaris). Turns out dtruss is still there, but apple has completely broken it, it doesn't work.
Just an example of how extremely developer-hostile Apple is.
Also, see this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25074959
At some point Windows just crashed and couldn't be brought back to life, straight up refused to be installed on that disk again.
(Funfact: the crash happened while playing some opensource sci-fi game... Produced by Microsoft)
I had a Gentoo Linux partition back then thanks to a friend from school and used that for everything from that point on.
Interestingly I never really had major issues. Running Warcraft 3 on Gentoo, writing my thesis (theseses actually) on Ubuntu and later switching to Arch Linux just worked.
I still remember switching to Gnome 3 (from KDE) and being impressed by how fast the Shell felt.
...
Fast forward to two years ago and I am forced to use Windows for the first time in 20+ years, in a locked down corporate setting nonetheless.
... what a hot mess :-)
Never used Tex specifically.
Fastmail also has a web based email client, which is as fast as (if not faster than) Outlook Classic.
The new Outlook is just bad. Load order is wrong, it renders everything on every window, loads unnecessary data, etc. Plain annoying.
Bonus points for it running fine on Linux, too. I understand there are some missing features compared to the old one (can't recall which), but for basic corpo emailing it works perfectly for me.
I now have 0 reasons to use Windows at work, so, for once, I'll nonironically cheer MS for a job well done!
1. You can't run all the rules on your inbox to sweep the piled up email after a weekend reboot. No such option while it is still present in the legacy native Outlook.
2. You have no option of deleting an entry in your calendar without sending a decline. I am in many groups and sometimes just want to clean up my calendar without sending declines. Again, very much present in the native program.
No one expects genuine innovation from MS, but at least they could put some effort into feature parity. Too much to ask for in the days of Copilot I guess.
I'm not sure what you mean. I have rules running regularly to move messages around, delete messages older than X in some folders. It all runs fine. Maybe there are some other kinds of rules I'm not aware of? But I do remember that back when "old outlook" was still the main thing, I needed to be running for the rules to apply, which meant that interacting with a different client was always... funny.
> 2. You have no option of deleting an entry in your calendar without sending a decline
Could this be a config flag somewhere? I've just run a test and invited my MS account from a personal mailbox. On the event, once accepted, there are two separate actions: decline and delete. I've received the "accepted" mail, but haven't received anything after "deleting" the event.
Isn't new outlook lives in the cloud? So this shouldn't be a usecase.
I exclusively used the web UI because it always ran faster for me, except for a small number of things it couldn't do.
There are some people that use Outlook for...well I'm not sure what but things that go way beyond email and calendar. I've been using the web app for several years now, it's fine. When I was new in IT, I always struggled to see what the big deal was with Outlook desktop. The web mail has folders, rules, shared mailbox support, integrated calendar, etc.
What more do you need out of email?
Well, turns out a lot. People treat email has a permanent data store. I've encountered folks with multiple PST files archiving 10+ years of email. I ran into people that needed to queue up a bunch of offline emails in their outbox to send when they're on network again (ok, I kind of get this use case), and I came across all manner of horrors of COM Add-ins.
Anyway, the root of the problem is people using email for everything it was never intended to do or be. If "new" Outlook can break some of those habits, we'll all be better off for it.
Is this strange?
I'll be trying to solve some problem, half-remember an email conversation from several years ago on something relevant, and want to look it up.
This feels like the most natural thing in the world to me, and it's not like the ability to save emails is new. Why, exactly, would a forced change of habits be for my own good?
At the personal level, it wouldn't be. It makes a lot of sense, and I do the same with Fastmail.
At the corp level where it's often in M365 cloud, you've got hard limits from Microsoft on one hand (100GB primary mailbox - period), and corporate data retention limits on the other. Legal often has strong opinions on how long you are allowed to retain emails which you may or may not be able to personally override. Could be just a few years, which forces a different strategy.
I'm not sure on the details of Google, but one imagines corp workspaces have equivalent interests.
Edit: We were on GSuite.
But I've seen enough corrupted PST files in my days to never trust Outlook/Exchange as permanent file storage.
Now with "New" Outlook you don't even get that, you get an ODT cache file, everything else is permanently server side in Microsoft land.
Enterprise "productivity" software is fundamentally broken.
Good times, it feels like we're getting less and less flexible with the hackability of our corporate workflows as time goes on.
It works both ways, I ran into a situation where a random Add-in was enabled on the web client and affecting the desktop client behavior despite not being in the list of Add-ins, and could only be disabled from the web client.
When I wrote this god and I understood it, now god only knows.
There's all flavors of "lite" apps and Firefox started as a stripped down version of Netscape.
A lot of older email apps have a prominent "offline" mode that if you accidentally activate it, basically stops the app from sending or receiving any email. I guess a lot of executives demanded the feature because they were handling all their email while on a plane without connectivity.
Email the protocol has this built in.
> If "new" Outlook can break some of those habits, we'll all be better off for it.
It won't, since email is in fact the best data store available to most people in enterprises (especially compared to things like Sharepoint). It might finally accelerate the move away from Exchange though. Here's hoping.
That last part is the real point of integration... then real time chat and messaging status baked in... it's hard to beat. You have services and applications that offer pieces, but none integrate as well.
In the early 2010's I think that both Blackberry and Mozilla had an opportunity to create their own competition in the space and neither did. Google is pretty close, but IMO still a much lesser experience, reinventing a new chat app every other year didn't help their cause at all.
If ever there was a recipe for doing a terrible job at building software, that's as good a way to put it as I think we will ever see.
It's true that a blank canvas loaded as a web view will start fast, though. But in practice, when web applications grow - performance tends to take a hit, and the developers also tend to be careless with resources.
Users don’t want to have to configure every app to fuck off, and native web apps (the world we _all_ live in) work way better than some hodgepodge of shit baked together by copilot that’s using unsafe calls and/or libraries.
It’s pretty spiffy when it works - it detects whether you’re in the same room as the conferencing device and suggests pre-muting your audio.
For a native app, I'm often limited to just a small set of components and maybe images I can put on those components. Animations are out of the picture. Configuring colors is sometimes not available but always painful (every component needs it tweaked, there's no universal way to change it). I can't really change things like border margins, rounding, or adding crazy stuff like wobbles or splash effects on click. And really, the more I try to add those things, the worse experience it ultimately ends up being as the OS style and theming moves on. My best bet is keeping everything as close to native styling as possible because that has the best shot of still being usable in windows 20.
Because web apps allow configuration of everything, everything is configured. There are libraries and frameworks that do mass configuration. You can always add 1, 2, or 20 new layers and webdev has abstracted that away into a simple <MyButton /> component. And because of all these capabilities, you need a pretty beefy runtime to be assured you can do them all. Coupled with the fact that this is all also powered by a javascript engine.
Only storyboards and XIBs were hard to style globally.
All of the flexibility, but a lot faster than web
Well, as I say, you can definitely have webview apps that start fast and aren't taking ten seconds to do things. Not just blank canvasses.
But when my phone is actually offline (on a plane or elevator) it beachballs when trying to find something.
Very fast and supports all the usual native macOS keyboard navigation, e.g. shift or command to amend selection in a list.
I’m worried Google won’t like it someday. It’s such a hassle if they shut you off that I want to seem like the most normal user to them. Pay Mimestream, skip ads, avoid Gmail app telemetry… any incentive for Google to permit it longterm? (Like maybe you’d switch to Fastmail if they killed Mimestream… or maybe not!)
Mail.app isn't total shit. It's not great. But it doesn't fumble the basics, like Outlook for Mac, which thinks it's fine to take like 10s to show me my inbox.
I can use get new mail or synchronize in Mail.app, but always spoiled by the instantaneous Gmail app notification. Often don’t have patience to wait for Mail.app for 2FA codes (just OCR or manually type from the Gmail notification mirrored on Mac).
Also should back up a bulk of ancient emails clogging the app, might be partially my fault.
It was nice while it lasted.
It needs to render custom content, and the HTML renderer is much faster than I'm able to make it myself using the native API.
Don't get me wrong, MS will enshitify anything it can to make a quick buck. They're much like Disney in that regard.
Active Directory is probably based on someone's LDAP server, though I don't know for sure.
.NET is a copy of Java
NT kernel is good, thank Digital/Dave Cutler for that.
It's long-since been rewritten. Pre-SQL Server 2000 it was garbage, but it's been improved significantly since then. I'd still use alternatives given the choice, but it's a solid DB.
>Active Directory is probably based on someone's LDAP server, though I don't know for sure.
So you don't know. It was written in house, using a bunch of standardized protocols (LDAP, X.500, kerberos), though with proprietary extensions (GPOs, etc).
> .NET is a copy of Java
That's a gross oversimplification. It's arguably a rip-off after MS tried to sabotage java, but it's their own implementation.
> NT kernel is good, thank Digital/Dave Cutler for that.
Yes, MS hired an experienced OS person for it. Probably one of the best things they ever did.
---
I'm not saying MS deserves kudos or the benefit of the doubt, but they can put out good software, and these are all mission-critical examples of what they have to (having AD go down would bring a whole corporation to a halt). The problem is that with almost everything else, MS has the incentive and capability to ruin. And ruin they do...
see https://hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com/p/021-expand...
and
https://hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com/p/bonus-the-...
A copy which has had value types (Java's ongoing Project Valhalla) from the start, and reified generics for as long as it had generics. They're quite different once you take a deeper look.
Both are web apps.
It’s NIGHT AND DAY. Google did everything instantly. Outlook doesn’t.
This morning Outlook decided to spin for 30+ seconds (at which point I gave up) showing a folder. I get a modal pop-up telling me I have to “refresh” teams multiple times a day. Search always fails the first time. Always. Then it works. Some.
I agree. It’s not web tech. It’s MS not caring.
https://github.com/efsavage/WinEML
Also a daily Fastmail user and it's as fast as any local mail client I've ever used.
Microsoft's problems are organizational. A developer can't actually do shit correctly when constantly being pushed to deliver more.
Written on my windows phone 7 series 7
- Satya Nadella
This is done by my employer but the "adoption" team at Microsoft provide the tools to do this monitoring and advertising, and they even provide the emails they send me verbatim. I have some stuff to do with the organisation around that. God I hate those guys, they are trained to be literal shills, corporate puppies. Completely brainwashed.
Outlook was late so Schedule+ was included in Office 95 for the Win95 release and so Schedule+ got a wider retail consumer release than if it had been just included with the Microsoft Exchange Server 4.0 release.
from https://www.reddit.com/r/software/comments/v73bk7/microsoft_...
7MB RAM is a lot when Win95 was designed for a 80386 with 4MB RAM. But a modern day x86 (okay, x64) with 8GB, that's about 0.1% of total RAM.Processes in Windows are very expensive objects. They could probably reduce the overhead by allowing more customization of the Chrome codebase for this. Mojo abstractions service location.
RAM usage at that scale might not be desirable, but any engineer knows that it's the result of a tradeoff where the other options take longer to develop. I would rather have an application that uses 400 MB now than a slimmer one in several years, or one that uses less memory but is extremely slow in some corporate environments (like older Outlook).
(please don't respond to quibble about the napkin math)
THAT'S how low the ball has been dropped.
No SSDs would be allowed anywhere except in the "does going fast break it" test room.
Anyone above VP would be required to have 5400 RPM rust.
Nowadays disks are fast, but a lot of apps are heavy - your Electron-based webapp is hundreds of megs of binary - there's no saving you from having to load that the same way. In fact most likely your app will have less assets to load than the sum of binaries.
What steams my clams is that I can press Reply in Outlook and be halfway through the first sentence of my message before the reply window even opens. (M4 Pro)
Almost every time I use Outlook, I have to rewrite my first sentence because half of it was typed before Outlook was finished doing whatever it does in the background. This doesn't happen with other mail clients on the same machine.
It's not 1982 with 8 character keyboard buffers. I shouldn't be able to type faster than a computer can handle the input.
I've been doing software engineering for 20+ years. I've been at a lot of different companies and at almost every single one I'm always kind of flabbergasted at how shabby the engineering is. I think maybe ONCE in my career did I work somewhere that I was proud of the engineering we were doing and it was a 18 month consulting gig at a startup with 3 engineers.
This isn't hubris, I am part of the problem. Too few engineers working with overly vague requirements with not enough time always results in the same thing. We are all churning out products we should be embarrassed about.
Microsoft might be the largest, most flagrant example, but code base entropy is a rampant force of nature. It is everywhere. Google Home gets steadily worse every week. How? They have like 100,000 engineers. Can they not spare a dozen of them to keep that product from being abject shit?
Is there a solution? I don't know, but maybe LLMs replacing 80% of us is exactly what we deserve.
Been there, done that, but I wouldn't put the blame on engineers. You said there it yourself:
> Too few engineers working with overly vague requirements with not enough time always results in the same thing. We are all churning out products we should be embarrassed about. [...] They have like 100,000 engineers. Can they not spare a dozen of them to keep that product from being abject shit?
You know the big O thing. If your algorithm is inefficient, it will ultimately slow down to a crawl at one point, no matter how many cores you throw at it. Now replace 'algorithm' and 'cores' with 'corporate processes' and 'employees' and you get a picture of what is exactly happening at large bureaucracies. Even worse so now that they can no longer afford to infinitely expand and have to cut costs (through LLMs and offshoring) while maintaining an illusion of growth for stakeholders.
The funny thing is that, despite all of this, the core problem (IMO) of managers playing political games and reaching for short-sighted quick fixes like "new agile methodologies" [0] instead of doing their jobs well remains unaddressed. Meta has been recently letting go of middle managers in a (frantic?) attempt to tame the explosion of bureaucracy and the associated loss of efficiency, but the rest of the industry just appears to be repeating "AI" like a mantra. Even though coding itself has already been the most "over-optimized" part of the whole software development process and optimizing (the costs of) it further only results in further "Outlookization" of software.
[0] https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/project-managemen...
I also see this bad design pattern - tried to clone an outlook calendar event, a meeting with a teams link it that I need repeatedly at sporadic new times (thus can not set it up as repeating).
Outlook native is unable to do that - I am then forced to use Teams to clone the event, likely because Teams need a new meeting id - but why the f••• is Outlook native not able to do that (oh - it’s a webthing).
Too bad they are making changes for the sake of changes (and $$$) in stead of user needs …
This was exposed through the UI by letting the user adjust the date & time for the RA instance (e.g. move this week's thursday 4pm meeting to 2pm) via drag-drop or editing the RM instance and change the time in the appt dialog.
So I assume with Outlook you could schedule a recurring appt for the common case - weekly appt on wednesday at 1PM. Adjust as your needs require - no meeting needed? Delete this week's instance. Need to move the meeting earlier or later? Go and reschedule this week's instance.
Obviously wouldn't work if you needed two meetings in a week.
It's why AI-driven development isn't actually yielding better products even though it makes developers more efficient. It's just being used to pump out garbage faster.
Hah, it even has in-app purchases, for AI writing...
The only way I can do anything timely now is through WSL.
Sometimes it is routed from the VPN, sometimes it is DNS, sometimes it just needs a restart. I'm not sure if that situation has improved. There were some workarounds at one point.
There's your mistake, if do it faster, you're going to get more work assigned. If you do it as Windows speed you get to do less work. Same money.
I’m struggling to understand what their end goal is. How much can you half ass everything until your entire company becomes just a nuisance.
A big decision maker, before signing a big contract, will look at the budget and won't care about how good is the UX.
Given that making Windows' market share is more or less impossible to make any bigger at this point (every human on earth has used Windows in some capacity by this point; there are no new markets to expand to, the only option left is to not bleed old users, but that requires significant effort and a good strategy), they've opted to not really bother with Windows and shifted focus completely, leaving Windows out to dry, resulting in this and gestures vaguely at Windows 11 and everything else Windows.
The second thing is that enterprises typically don't have someone fighting for the desktop UX to remain usable when PC fleets go up for purchase - pick the cheapest toilet paper is often the strategy of the day. Now you have a PC that hits a bargain price point that seemed attractive on some analysis to the CFO, it's been saddled with security software that saps 50% of the limited performance to begin with.
[1] https://github.com/ProgerXP/Notepad2e
Complete rubbish. Not a single person in the organisation likes the new Outlook.
There's no reason finding an installed app should be anything slower than that
iOS and macOS suffer this too, it's like I open search and the operating system awakes from a hangover and makes sure it's wearing pants first
Old one lives in c:/windows/notepad.exe which you can open with Win+R, type notepad to open good old non-slop non-ai notpead. Or do some registry shenanigans (you can find them online) to bring that one in start menu or make it a default editor.
17 seconds. I timed it.
The old Win32 applications still launch instantly on the same computer.
> Hah, it even has in-app purchases, for AI writing...
That's disgusting, even by Microslop standards.
My work machine runs Windows 11 and it's fully up to date. Notepad starts pretty much instantly.
They all have _very significant _ performance issues out of the box, with very long app startups, and very confusing slowdowns. I am 99% sure it’s windows defender doing an absolute crap ton of work on every single file open, and ignoring file and folder exclusions.
The best resource for this kind of stuff is Bruce Dawson's blog:
https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/
After a reboot, on an NVMe dev drive with no disk encryption, first launch of our internal application (unreal editor) takes 9 minutes on my workstation. If I disable windows defender before launching it, it takes 30 seconds. If I add all the processes as exclusions, and add the workspace folder as an exclusion to defender… 9 minutes.
edit:
I didn't mean to direct this at you. I mean that it's somehow gained traction as being the solution to slow filesystem access, but the reality is it's just broken.
I do not mean to patronize, it's just the enterprise-y stuff has tried locking down the PCs for exactly this reason - deleting the security tools when they're not loaded would be of course very effective.
On top of that, showing such motivation can expose people to violating the 782 commandments of whatever corporate IT policy someone had to sign to get a paycheck.
Rare is the security vs usability compromise in these companies that accounts for the need for high performance desktops, sadly.
If there’s a middle ground I’d love to hear it!
I don't know, I've been developing on Windows for decades without an antivirus and I've never had these issues. Are your people downloading and installing random software all the time? In my experience, once I'm set up with my usual tools I rarely need to install anything else.
Yeah, just looking at the app control logs, they evidently wanted a weird notepad app, someone else tried a bespoke browser, random browser extensions, some audio tool instead of using the licensed Adobe products, whatever. That's before we get into the people who try to install games or cursors or custom wallpaper and amusement widgets. There always seems to be someone who uses the work tools for porn and clicks on things. These things show up in 5-person and 5000-person offices alike.
Good judgment gets individuals pretty far but it's not workable with a critical mass of people. Many orgs are under attack from convincing and intentional spearphishing, and the common denominator in how most attacks start is people. Not all attacks, but lots.
On top of that, I think we'd fall behind on some of these attacks without stuff like 3rd party 24/7 SOCs - the last few incidents I read, cookies were re-used in seconds after being phished, and command and control sessions were detected almost immediately in a different attack.
I find all of this exhausting stuff as the norm when I talk to people across the industry, and yet I don't bother at all at home - I'm living both realities.
We’re hosed if someone submits malware to source control and other people run it?
> Either way, surely you can set up some policies or monitoring for that sort of thing.
Like a tool that comes with windows that checks that nobody has done that, called windows defender? The tool I have a problem with?
> I've been developing on Windows for decades without an antivirus and I've never had these issues
This is a 100 person company with maybe 30 programmers, 30 artists and 30 designers. I don’t know which of those people are “capable” - and the people who say they are are the people I probably trust least. In a perfect world we’d tell everyone to be careful, and not click on random phishing links, and they’d listen. But they don’t, and we have to take some basic precautions. Using the OS provided, historically good, tools is a good starting point.
> Are your people downloading and installing random software all the time?
Dunno, we don’t monitor what people do. We just get an email if defender quarantines something. But we’re dealing with people working from home, and being given gaming spec machines. I would put money in the fact that people are using these for personal use.
No, like a tool that's running on a machine of its own, monitoring what gets pushed to version control, or a policy on the version control server that rejects attempts to push files of the wrong type.
The problem is that there’s 100 of these “little” issues - and I have a full time job that _isnt_ doing IT support. If someone can help me find an IT support contractor that I can hire that will fix it I’d love to chat to them, but it goes in the pile alongside “why on earth does teams take longer to boot than my entire machine” and “why are we using zoom (because the person who makes the decision there prefers zoom to teams”)
On Windows 7, you could hit enter and immediately start typing numbers and it would work. I have never worked on a Windows 10 or 11 machine where it launches instantly.
I get a similar lag when launching Notepad. Not a huge disruption to the day, but annoying to see on a simple utility that used to be better.
If users have to debug performance problems, they'd be better off just installing Linux instead.
This is the company that invented the term dogfooding and forced everyone to use Exchange until all the bugs were worked out.
I’m building a next gen web mail app at work and there are a ton of UX edge cases but the performance of the core UI is not rocket science.
I’m looking for help play testing to squash bugs, improve the last mile of performance, and to add Outlook support.
https://housecat.com/
The incentive is the mail app is “malleable” so you can craft custom workflows and UI widgets to help you get to inbox zero.
There is no one reason for the quality issues. It's a thousand small decisions and problems that have compound against each other over decades, coupled with the sheer feature complexity+scope+impact and multiplied by the titanic scale and volume the platform handles.
Additionally, the engineering culture really prioritizes backwards compatibility for customers (for good reasons) which bleeds into all aspects of the platform/decisions in both good and bad ways - and means that the big and obvious step-change platform improvements that could be made internally to make things better are not really invested in, or are deemed to expensive.
It's still a great place to work, and I'm proud that my work is in some small way directly contributing to and helping billions of people's work lives but there's still a long road ahead to improving the customer experience of using the platform for both internal and external customers.
Outlook already provides me this, it's terrible at it since context is key and context is probably buried in several places it has access to and despite that access, it still falls flat.
As I build this out there's actually less and less AI in the product and more good old-fashioned UX, writing and data entry tools, and automations.
Some examples...
We're simply bringing a CRM CRUD form into an email thread, populated from email sender / domain, for the end user to review and submit.
You can add your own notes into a thread, and copy / paste from
Similarly good pre-defined templates with variables perform way better than AI generated drafts.
Context is indeed key. The person at their email inbox has most of the context in their head, they need good tools to organize that context down for their future self and their team. AI can help but its really about just building a great tool for the operator.
If the developer is suggesting answering emails with agents without reading it, how do I know this project is shoved full of unchecked vibe-coding? Don't want to be so harsh, but I wanted to second this feedback since you seem serious about hearing it. All the best with the project, aside from the immediate AI turnoff it looks great.
This happened ~2014/2015.
https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/how-microsoft-doe...
A friend of mine used to work for Microsoft (long ago). One day I was complaining to him about some package that Microsoft had put out. "It's so slow!" I said. He replied, nonchalantly: "buy Intel stock. People will have to upgrade their PCs!"
Second one is from about 15 years ago. At one of the local meetups, I was chatting with a long-lost friend who worked for Yahoo. He was describing their recently-concluded Search deal with Microsoft, and how it worked in practice. This was an issue he had raised with Microsoft engineers and gotten no traction on their side. (This is all from memory). Basically, he described how a search request from an European user was handled by Yahoo Search. So, say someone goes to "search.yahoo.de" and enters a search term and it triggers a request at some Yahoo server in an EU datacenter. According to the deal, that would be forwarded to a Microsoft server, based in Virginia. Now, since the request was from EU, the Microsoft server would turn around and make a request to a MS server based in EU. Which would then respond with the search results to the MS server in VA. Which would then send the response back to the Yahoo server in EU. So, basically, 4 cross-Atlantic hops for one search request. He claimed latency figures of around 1500ms, when their internal goal was to keep latency below 300ms (after which it becomes noticeable and hurts metrics?). But when he brought up this massive latency spike to his counterparts in MS, they just shrugged it off.
https://winaero.com/get-calculator-from-windows-8-and-window...
It was a little difficult setting it up so that the calculator key on the keyboard pulls it up but aside from that it works well.
The appx is: Approximate size 21.8 MB according to https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/9wzdncrfhvn5
Win7 calc.exe had 758KB for i686 and 897KB for amd64.
And most important: no corporate spyware disguised as anti-virus, in this machine.
Not one, not once. Even my worst day on Linux where something does work for seemingly no reason, still better than Windows.
To be honest, this is the same in almost all apps that have any more than 10 developers working on them (my estimate!). Death by dependencies and a lack of coherent design.
As someone else said, though, some things like fastmail work OK in the browser so it is possible.
There are at least 4 platforms they would need to support: Win, Mac, iPhone, and Android.
That's 4 different software engineers at least, just for the frontend.
Then, there's various backend engineers, who could be shared, yes, but not always. Android's weird runtime requirements are bespoke enough that just because the database is written in C++, doesn't mean it's the same C++ database as what the Windows backend would use.
Finally, there's the designers, who end up consolidating all the unique things about each native platform into a common design language so they can have a shared vision on all of the platforms. So engineers end up building UI that works identically on all 4 platforms, and you're basically building a bespoke "browser" at that point.
Sure. But if Zetetic, the SQLCipher[0] guys, can maintain native independent releases of Codebook [1] on all platforms there’s no excuse.
Big tech serves the shareholders. Building native applications across platforms is hard, but not “put man on the moon” hard.
—-
[0] https://www.zetetic.net/sqlcipher/
[1] https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/
They'd screw those up as well.
So now i am forced to use this New Outlook crapware at last. And it is crap. Its slow as a dog, every action takes 1s. Why do they rearrange all the buttons, change all the fonts... why don't they just copy the old interface 1:1 ? Who knows...
If I have to use this new version for longer than 2 weeks I am switching to some other client.
And also, who knows, maybe they are purposefully inserting these show-stopping bugs to get people to switch.
[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/replying-to-or-for...
Just delete the Outlook app from the Applications folder, and run the Outlook installer from version 16.109.3 (June 02, 2026) [1]. All data is there, no need for any backups or anything.
Then, delete (or rename) the Microsoft AutoUpdate App, which lives in: /Library/Application Support/Microsoft/MAU2.0
[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/officeupdates/update-histo...
https://youtu.be/CT7nnXej2K4
The comments on that video are perfect.
Dear Lord, how has the software gotten this much worse in 19 years? I thought that Thunderbird was bloated and awful... until I tried Outlook, in a browser, on Linux. Now, the Thunderbird experience is shockingly pleasurable, compared.
Don't even get me started on the horror that is trying to mix left-to-right and right-to-left languages within the same document. OpenOffice figured this out a decade ago. Google Docs has done this perfectly since the beginning. When I learned that it was genuinely this bad on Windows too, my mind was blown.
I don't understand how this is possible.
Dumb-@$$ Copilot in Outlook. The other day I needed to list all of the file attachments for a particular email. Copilot couldn’t do it. But it could suss my impatience.
The issue is, as the product continues to generate revenue, the product team continues to get funding and they are forced to add bloat as new features.
Same with security and compliance standards at companies. You keep pouring more money, and you keep getting more fort walls and dungeons, without any regard to productivity and performance impact.
i think that having teams for each product is an antipattern. if the team was purely a "mail task force", the workers could be placed to work on Exchange or the Azure related bullshit. But now, the Outlook team has to constantly create unnecessary work for itself.
This is bizarre. Kyle Rubenok, according to his LinkedIn and GitHub @krubenok, is the senior manager for the outlook product. Isn't he taking any responsibility for how poorly his product performs? In many regular companies, such a manager would be fired for managing a product into decline. I guess I don't understand how big US corporations work.
also, idk when, but the talent level of a "msft engineer" from 90s to early 2000s feels like they runs laps around the msft engineers of today. it's hard to not feel that the suits cannibalized what was at one point an extremely profitable company with great engineering culture for nothing but shortsighted gains
The only thing I'm missing sometimes is the Copilot integration, but copy and paste with Thunderbird is still faster than using Copilot in Outlook...
https://github.com/thunderbird/developer-docs/blob/master/th... and https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/02/the-future-of-thunderbi...
I've never had problems with Thunderbird on that front, but then again, I've never had email accounts with 100k emails archived.
If you want mail to just work and updates going smoothly it's the solution.
Microsoft don't even _have_ a reasonable desktop UI stack, having been through at least 4-5 which gained minimal traction before being abandoned. The last successful one was Windows Forms, which is what I'd pick up today if I ever had to touch Windows again.
>the new Outlook uses between 490 MB and 636 MB of RAM while idle, with individual sessions varying based on mailbox size. Outlook Classic, doing the same job, uses around 117 MB to 148 MB at idle. A roughly fourfold difference.
In the old days, we would have cried about 150MB memory usage idle as being bloat. Why isn't it 30 to 60MB. Now 150MB is still so much better than 600MB.
I am not sure if Native will ever win. I do wonder if we could somehow make webview, or may be a subset of webview that is as fast as native.
I'm curious how much of those 150 are things that can't be boiled down to 'text', since that should be roughly the same size as on completely un-bloated software. The database of emails, the plain text of said emails, and all the basic UI should all be nothing but text and take up next to nothing.
Images on the other hand. I'd imagine Outlook Classic hasn't been made with 1 MB PNGs for all their icons, so it's probably not that that's pulling the memory usage, although it's probably contributing. Meanwhile, New Outlook (New) probably didn't optimise a single thing, so it probably is using 1 MB icons, which then quickly piles up. Not to mention the whole webview rendering backend, since we apparently can't make anything without going through a few layers of abstraction first.
My understanding was that the proposition of Electron is that it’s there's some cross-platform advantages, also it’s basically easier and you can hire a junior dev to wing it.
My understanding of AI is that you can just tell a junior dev to vibe it.
So can't you turn your AI’s on making native UI via vibe apps? Shouldn't that be really easy for any idiot, and also performant?
Adobe is but they have a ginormous multi-decade codebase that mastered cross-platform UI ages, an LLM coding assistant ought to be able to "add a range input here using our standard UI library" much more easily than "rebuild this with Electron."
1Password at least has a decent excuse for a rotten decision.
With Electron + React, you'd be able to rip out any components you need and place them in other web apps. The browser is (psychologically) avoiding vendor dependencies to a greater degree than other options.
I know of a few other cross platform toolkits if you don't like Qt, but in all cases you quickly become tied to it.
They really picked the wrong timeline in which to 4x RAM usage for no benefit.
It's incredible when we have AI assistants that slow shit like that still ships in products affecting millions of users. Imagine how much totally wasted energy that costs just because the companies are cheap. Just port it to Rust and run it as webassembly at least.
Nowadays everything is cloude based including e-mails, you have zero reasons to use Windows as an end user.
Adobe is RIP and the alternative supports Linux, gaming is no longer excuse and in fact, games anti-cheat require kernel level access on Windows, that will never happen on Linux.
Companies still use Windows because they can track everything, Microsoft Teams is more than just a chat, it tracks your status, keyboard usage, interaction with teams, camera on/off during meeting, mic, etc.
Companies can build a whole profile from your Teams data.
Windows is the most unsecure OS, it has always been, so companies can spend millions or billions of dollars on tools and services to make Windows somewhat usable.
Also, forcing engineers to use Windows to manage Linux servers has to be the most nonsense thing ever.
Make that makes sense.
If I intended on using a basic email editor, I would not have installed Outlook on my PC, I think the product manager or whoever is in charge of it's direction completely misunderstands the purpose/use-case of their programs.
I don't doubt the new one is slower, but it seems odd that that's the only video that doesn't show the taskbar.
Happens on Windows/Mac
It seems to do an update check before rendering any UI, if there’s an update it must download and apply it before showing the UI. To a user trying to open the app, it’s as if it’s broken not loading.
It’s a massive pain, trying to access email but need to wait five minutes as the app decides it’s not going to open and update instead of giving the option not to, or doing it transparently in the background so app useable and prompting to restart when ready
Trying to save files in office is just as frustrating. Some dark UX going on making it difficult to save locally instead of in one drive.
Where there any genuinely useful features Outlook 2016 had over 2010?
Just off the top of my head:
IFNA, FORMULATEXT, DAYS, CONCAT, IFS, SWITCH, XLOOKUP/XMATCH, FILTER, UNIQUE, LET, TEXTBEFORE/TEXTAFTER, LAMBDA, et al.
But my favorite improvement is the "don't intentionally corrupt CSVs" options found in Settings -> Data -> Automatic Data Conversion (hint: Disable everything). Only took them 30-years to add that. Absolutely absurd these are enabled by default still.
Excel is one of Microsoft's best pieces of software and one of the very few they haven't turned into slop YET. Still don't understand why we don't have local-only Python to replace VBA at all license levels (i.e. non-cloud).
Reminds me of the old joke about it: How is Microsoft Excel like an Incel? Both think everything is a date.
It still butchers long strings of digits if they are more than around 12 and less than around 15 digits long, its very annoying still.
Also textjoin and textsplit and the whole spill functionality.
Although I don't love it and avoided it for many years I've noticed a lot of these issues went away with the new Outlook. I can load and unload shared mailboxes on demand and I stopped worrying about cache mode settings about five minutes after I switched to it.
It's not great, it's not terrible, like most software I use. But I would have always said the same about Outlook Classic.
Bottom line for me is that MS has Classic on maintenance mode and it's only a matter of time before it's gone.
I wish someone would give them the performance religion. The saying that what Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away is pretty old, but I will defend Microsoft in the past with the observation that, you know, 32MB of RAM to 64MB is a pretty small change in the modern sense. It doesn't take very many bitmaps or fonts or colors to burn through that sort of increase in power, even at the older resolutions of the past. There's a reason we don't all build our UIs to run on 386-class machines.
But it's gotten freaking absurd. I've got a 8-core monster that cranks up to near 5GHz at the drop of a hat, more RAM than I could have dreamed of in the 1990s, and a disk with numbers that I would have asked if you were accidentally talking about RAM back then (NVME SSDs still have ~500-1000x the latency, but the modern SSD wins handily on bandwidth). Modern code has more to do, more fonts, more graphics, more Unicode, but still it has gotten really absurd. 10 seconds on a modern computer is a lot of time. 12,000 frames of a AAA game ought to be enough computational power to check my email, not to have my email checker still choking and stuttering as it barely manages to start up.
I see a freaking loading screen with the Outlook logo for 5 seconds before the window is updated with the meeting name along with a button to dismiss it. Yes that's everything in there.
How does Microsoft think this is ok?
Every time.
And then there's the fact that, if Teams wasn't already loaded, you can be up five minutes late for a meeting waiting for Teams to roll out of bed despite having clicked Join bang on meeting time.
I don't have the most up to date system at work, but it feels like 90s wait-computing.
Like, sending an empty folder to the bin:
Win 10 this afternoon took seconds to display a dialog box with no content, the a couple seconds to add a progressbar, then a second to add the cancel button, then multiple seconds to finish showing progress.
But at home a 1991s system with System 7 completes the same task instantly without needing a progressbar.
Rest of the people do not know the difference or know how to change out the software with better alternatives. Example, Firefox keeps loosing customers to Chrome and yet Firefox fully supports Manifest V2 with proper Ad-Block support, which increases computer security. Show these people an Ad heavy website with Chrome vs Firefox & U-Block Origin, this looks like magic to them.
Personally, you have to pay me to use Microsoft products. I have been game exclusively on Linux for nearly 10 years now. Before that, 5 years of dual booting just to game.
But seriously, can we please make desktop productivity apps not suck on windows? I started programming on windows, old school Win32 with a little MFC. Still have the super thick MFC book from MikeB somewhere in the closet. It was better than the alternatives at the time.
Now I look at the windows developer site and I can't even figure out what happened since I stopped Win32 programming at around 2004. It's a total train wreck of abandoned technology, each worse than the previous ones.
Office (and to some degree visual studio), used to be the lighthouse, best in breed application, often using api's that were not yet public and styles that were not yet adopted. I remember buying component libraries that emulated these to make better looking and performing apps.
I'd look at windows again if they would make apps not suck and be ones that the industry strives to emulate. Without that, Linux or Mac is just as good (actually better since they have decent userlands).
[even when the top-level tracking preferences look full off, if you dig down you'll find some “part” on, and you can't set them full-off (you are blocked from disabling tracking by Amazon at least)]
[Mental note to self: add “windowslatest.com” to “are you really sure you want to go there?” DNS greylist]
I'm also don't agree with the assertions that you cannot address performance issues in a web based application. The actual email rendering in Outlook classic is still an embedded browser engine. Now it's just doing more of the application. If anything VS Code and the underlying editor system should show that you really can create pretty responsive applications on a browser surface... no, it's not the fastest, but if you're comparing to a lot of "full" IDE applications, it's a massive improvement... Visual Studio around 2010 was absolutely horrible for building web based applicatons, with common freezes and input lags.
There's plenty of room for improvement in these applications... I think the web shift is more to support cross platform better than it is to avoid optimization. At this point, they really want to be able to support Android, iOS, Windows, Mac and maybe unofficially Linux. The browser is the best bet to make that happen. I think that wasm can bridge a lot of the performance issues where service interactions go beyond the immediate state. With the rust ecosystem as good as it is for wasm target usage, I'm frankly surprised more of the logic isn't already there instead of JS. That said, I don't know how much is effectively asm.js or electronic translations to JS, or relying on server functionality. I haven't dug that deep.
That said, there's plenty of room to optimize web based applications. Even if it comes down to single-channel RDP application shells to a server-running application remotely. I think the point is to share as much as possible and support as broad an audience as they can. I think this is still happening in a context where three are still those that are trying to keep Windows on top and ignore Linux, while others in the org want to fully embrace it.
(Hilariously, I found a feedback link but it points to a 404.)
Teams takes 2gig of memory on launch, and still misses keystrokes because it is so unresponsive. Click on someone and start typing and half your chat isn't recorded. Absolute hot garbage.
Outlook isn't much better.
People who worked on them should be ashamed to consider these products shippable.
its also possibly cheaper than the monthly licence fee for the desktop app suite
F OneDrive.
I agree with the parent comment though. MS just doesn't have meaningful competition for Windows and Office, and the terrible software quality/experience is what we get.
that people still buy this, businesses still rely on their infrastructure, and their stock is somehow world-class is outstanding for the fact that its operating system can't do what middle school level coders can accomplish
Kudos to the team. I think this is same team that maintains Office Suite for Mac.
I hope to see Teams for Mac in the future. Current Teams app is dogshit.
Now that they've hidden mail access behind oauth (imap and SMTP, additionally SMTP behind global default off policy) and graph api behind oauth2 - it looks like they don't have to worry about real mail clients competing.
Actually fighting [f] to get mail in/out working with freescout right now - and having had learn more than I care to about o365 and PowerShell etc - I wonder how hard it would be to write a couple of stand alone tools to get fetch/send/sync mail working with o365 and local maildir - to get my/sup/any sane Mua to really work with o365/exchange/outlook.
Then there's calendar and teams to deal with..
[f] Thankfully our o365 reseller does most of the fighting - I'm happy to not have tenant-wide admin in AD/entra/whatever kerberized LDAP is called today.
https://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/
Btw, anyone still reading/participating mailing lists? From MacOS? Have you found a reasonable client?
I'm not even going to try with Outlook.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-US/Outlook/outlook-for-mac
Which one did you use?
Now if only Linux were to offer a useful GUI ...
To which, I bet someone does. If you think Windows nails all the right ideas, there is Mint.
Tell me you have only used gnome without telling me
Everybody I know uses IM systems like Wechat, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal.
Great, instead of having a single, standard and interoperable way to communicate (albeit with its defaults), now we need to have 5, 6, 7 different closed systems that can't speak with each other, most of which require a working smartphone in order to even have an "address". What a wonderful evolution...
I'd love to see it though, because email really is long in the tooth at this point.
- I use my own domain, so I'm not tied to any single provider
- I can keep a copy of everything (I still have some emails from 30 years ago)
https://www.windowslatest.com/2026/06/13/whatsapp-is-eating-...
It's the "blink twice if you're okay" test for them.
On a side note, how long did it take for IBM to go from being everywhere to becoming irrelevant?
I really don’t need the freshest view at once. Maybe I just need to look at an open email you dog of an app!
Why did they castrate Outlook? Does MS hate itself? What in the name of shit are they thinking? Who does this make happy?
If I do a search of my inbox with a lot of results, it gets lazy-loaded. Fair enough. But why, when I scroll to the bottom and it loads the new batch of email, does the view need to jump back to the top of the list?
Why has Gmail been able to recognize and properly group/deduplicate prior conversations in top-posted email threads for 20 years, but Outlook can't bother? That also breaks search, since every email with the result somewhere in its body (even prior emails) will appear.
No, that's a very uninformed take, and contradicted on two fronts:
1. Microsoft's other native apps have gotten unusably slow lately, too.
2. There's definitely plenty of fast web apps.
I don't mind snark, but make it factually accurate.
This is just Microsoft's poor strategic decision to try to drive as many as possible to Linux. Hell, weren't they bragging recently about managing to make opening the start menu take only a tenth of a second? It should be instant.
Maybe they think we'll replace users with AI, too. AI is the only thing slower than Microsoft's UIs lately.
That can be an issue for native apps too, but they tend to be designed in a local-first manner, which means that they'll always have a speed advantage, assuming your typical dev team.
That's not an inherent web-vs-native difference, though.
> That can be an issue for native apps too, but they tend to be designed in a local-first manner
That's a choice.
> which means that they'll always have a speed advantage
woah there. No.
> assuming your typical dev team
So it comes down to the developers (and project management, etc). Yup, I 100% agree with that.
So we agree that it's not a technical difference?
We have 4GHz computers with 8-16 cores, and it takes 100,000,000 cycles to show the start menu?
Edit: Corrected the scale factor.
That’s about 1,000 instructions per pixel of the Start Menu!
But in all seriousness, if MS really did believe in copilot, there would be no need to write webapp slop. They could just write native app slop.
Similar to Electron, but using an MS Edge browser window control as the webview control instead of Google Chrome.
It's lighter weight than Electron, if you consider that Webview2 ships with Windows and is shared with other Webview2 consumers as opposed to Electron apps which each ship with their own self-contained web browser.